Hi Dear Mr.Wolff
Perhaps south could have drawn trumps after ruffing the lead and played A and another diamond before leading club for finesse. East bidding three spades in vulnerable position virtually marks him with seven spades . Now, most probably, west may continue a diamond or even if he shifts to a club, dummy finesses, east wins but he can safely return only a club. Dummy wins and now the loser on loser play will become quite patent . south ruffs a low spade, dummy ruffs a club and leads J of spades with south discarding when east covers and makes ten tricks irrespective of what east does
And this is with respect to yesterday’s column. It is indeed delightful to play and fulfil a contract in the Moysian fit but unfortunately may not be reached in present day bidding systems
And most importantly , since quite sometime I wanted to ask this. I had been reading that Benito Garozzo cheated all the while he was in the Blue team. It appears that Avon Wilsmore mentions this in his book and he categorically mentions that Garozzo cheated . I am providing the links which make for an engrossing reading. It is indeed painful if he has cheated. https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/avon-wilsmore-and-eugenio-chiaradia
Hi Dear Mr.Wolff
Perhaps south could have drawn trumps after ruffing the lead and played A and another diamond before leading club for finesse. East bidding three spades in vulnerable position virtually marks him with seven spades . Now, most probably, west may continue a diamond or even if he shifts to a club, dummy finesses, east wins but he can safely return only a club. Dummy wins and now the loser on loser play will become quite patent . south ruffs a low spade, dummy ruffs a club and leads J of spades with south discarding when east covers and makes ten tricks irrespective of what east does
And this is with respect to yesterday’s column. It is indeed delightful to play and fulfil a contract in the Moysian fit but unfortunately may not be reached in present day bidding systems
And most importantly , since quite sometime I wanted to ask this. I had been reading that Benito Garozzo cheated all the while he was in the Blue team. It appears that Avon Wilsmore mentions this in his book and he categorically and emphatically mentions that Garozzo cheated in discussion at the blog : Bridgewinners.com
What is your opinion?
Regards
jim2July 2nd, 2021 at 11:15 am
Impressive, especially managing to play a card “suavely” electronically.
A V Ramana RaoJuly 2nd, 2021 at 12:13 pm
Hi Jim 2
Perhaps there was provision for video where players could see each other apart from the bidding!!
Regards
bobbywolffJuly 2nd, 2021 at 3:14 pm
Hi AVRR & Jim2,
While suavely trying to write suavely about timing in bridge, it will only occur, if the results, even electronically, prove suave,
While I do believe that East did not to have seven spades, but only six to venture his 3 spade bid, it well could be true, not to draw 2 rounds of trump before finding out if the club finesse worked, if spades were only six by East, or the club finesse worked but since the 9 of hearts was not overruffed by the ten, allowing the third reason to be the the charm and, at the least, East not West could have have been dealt the three hearts.
No doubt your alternate line of play (drawing trump and having them break evenly) is more mind settling (and immediately) but whether it is percentage, while never to be known by me, but if possible, perhaps by others (likely in addition to head hurting) causes me to be non-plussed about what to do with no doubt, not drawing trump more suave, not less, since encountering danger by our heroes allows them to be better identified.
I hope no one classifies the column line, not drawing trump, but then ruffing the 2nd spade from dummy with the nine, as taking a “practice finesse” (one which is only taken to see if one’s finesses are working) since the attempt of immediately drawing trump does have a significant possible downside.
However AVRR, your line may or may not be best, and if you want to be aggressive, ask Jim2 what he thinks, since even though he is the one campaigning against head hurting, if he wants to make that sacrifice, we should all be both thankful and quite impressed.
I would if I could, but I don’t know exactly how (even close, except involving many what ifs), so I won’t.
Robert LiptonJuly 2nd, 2021 at 4:06 pm
I think Avi’s line makes a lot of sense. However, ruff the opening lead. Now cash a high trump. Both follow. Your chance for ten tricks depends on either west having the CK or the trump splitting 2-2. Take the club hook now. When that fails, play for the trump being 2-2. Ruff the Spade return high (or win the minor suit ace), and cash the remaining high trump. Playing both gives you a 70% chance. Of course, you can simply cash two high trumps, planning on taking the club hook if they break 3-1, which seems functionally identical. Once the trumps break, the club hook gives you a shot at an overtrick.
Bob Lipton
bobbywolffJuly 2nd, 2021 at 4:52 pm
Hi AVRR,
Yes, I do 100% agree with Avon’s masterpiece and all the effort he gave in first deciding to write it, compiling it, promoting it, and taking slings and arrows in dealing with it. Truly a magnificent effort and eventually hopefully a savior to our sensational and beloved game.
That, in spite of both Benito and Giorgio easily being solidly in the top five players who have ever lived, likely (in my opinion first and second best all time) with also Pietro Forquet another key Italian Blue Team player being in the top 25.
However the rest of them (all, and from time to time which included several decades, there were up to double digits of them) were nothing more than very slightly above average club players making IMO it totally impossible for them to have won even close to what they accomplished in winning so many World championships if having played honestly and therefore without significant illegal help. (those so-called club players also were evil, significantly increasing their value).
Team bridge at that level is not so much how good are a team’s top partnerships (since most all of their opponents, at that level of play are indeed usually excellent, at least the ones who are capable of winning, but rather how bad are their teammates.
Because of the poor results of the weaker pairs creates more adverse swings than do consistent extraordinarily good results by the better ones. I should mention here that throughout the world there are a reasonable (but not overwhelming) number of good players and partnerships, but by far the largest threat against their winning is the lack of depth when at least two and sometimes three world class partnerships are needed to merely have a chance to reach the semi-finals, much less win.
Very sad, but like Bill Cosby’s current dilemma, no easy ethical answers except to void all of the wins which included the Blue Team, results forever (not replacing nor moving up others, since, all the cheating teams opponents and along their way to a championship, no one can tell or even be likely sure to which team might have won).
B & G both also had great compelling and pleasing personalities, making it even a tougher situation, but for bridge to continue to achieve its great potential, it is imperative that they admit what they have done, which, in truth goes back to Carl Albert Perroux, their Captain (and actually being an Italian lawyer) in the early 1950’s who made it all happen by being given the task of making it occur and quickly choosing the only way that overall collection of players could have achieved it.
Possibly one or two championships in double digit tries, but no way might I think it would happen more often than that. And not to mind their Captain, including Benito, would result in not being allowed to represent Italy.
While I played thousands of World Championship and other major event hands against them I got to know (and who wouldn’t?) just how good those two were, but I also played against many of their teammates and the opposite was just as true.
However, bridge being the game it is, any undue advantage, especially to brilliant players, wards off the impossible to completely avoid
disasters, which await and occur systematically
among all players (similar to bookmaker’s advantage in gambling) with their commission or often called vigorish, overcoming the back and forth lady luck provides, according and being made so, by the immutable law of averages.
To me, bridge is far and away the greatest mind game ever (for many reasons) and it is barely possible that if overt cheating is not stopped (and the USA has had their share of miscreants, together with cleaning up the (past 90+ years) with the truth, our game may suddenly vanish due to the ease of various types of cheating down to and including serious unethicality. If so, I do not want to live to see that happen, but my age indicates I may not have to.
I did, during my administrative years (and there were many decades) did as much as I could do (or at least close) to clean up what I could, while at the same time continue to play as well as administrate, but now we are at a crossroad, due to the nature of the game, which sadly tempts evil-minded players to get on that wagon, only caring about themselves, instead of the majesty of our sensational pass-time.
In any event I hope I have answered your provocative question to your satisfaction.
A V Ramana RaoJuly 2nd, 2021 at 5:55 pm
Hi Dear Mr Wolff
I seek your pardon if you felt the question was provocative. No , I am just curious because Wilsmore quotes many players and cites many hands and instances insinuating cheating.I have gone through some of the deals played and defended by Garozzo and found them absolutely brilliant. It would be indeed painful if at all there was any hanky-panky
Regards
bobbywolffJuly 2nd, 2021 at 6:57 pm
Hi AVRR,
A pardon from me is not necessary since provocative shouldn’t and I think doesn’t, state nor imply, wrongdoing.
I guess that it is indeed strange for someone, considered the best at what he does, to also be illegal and untrustworthy but then one can begin to understand it when it comes to a team game, instead of an individual competition. Note=cheating at sports or anything, but still not profiting.
However while a one person entry such as Lance Armstrong could be the poster child for
individual shenanigans and also success, Benito and Giorgio needed to produce superhuman results to win besides having their mediocre teammates also produce better than their lack of talent, would permit.
Both tasks were accomplished, but to the tune of Avon’s incredible work effort and likely thousands more the world over, who have known for years, the mystery had already been solved, but, unlike Cosby, not the solution nor justice, at least partially rectified.
Also you are definitely allowed to think what you want, since all I am answering with is my opinion.
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Hi Dear Mr.Wolff
Perhaps south could have drawn trumps after ruffing the lead and played A and another diamond before leading club for finesse. East bidding three spades in vulnerable position virtually marks him with seven spades . Now, most probably, west may continue a diamond or even if he shifts to a club, dummy finesses, east wins but he can safely return only a club. Dummy wins and now the loser on loser play will become quite patent . south ruffs a low spade, dummy ruffs a club and leads J of spades with south discarding when east covers and makes ten tricks irrespective of what east does
And this is with respect to yesterday’s column. It is indeed delightful to play and fulfil a contract in the Moysian fit but unfortunately may not be reached in present day bidding systems
And most importantly , since quite sometime I wanted to ask this. I had been reading that Benito Garozzo cheated all the while he was in the Blue team. It appears that Avon Wilsmore mentions this in his book and he categorically mentions that Garozzo cheated . I am providing the links which make for an engrossing reading. It is indeed painful if he has cheated.
https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/avon-wilsmore-and-eugenio-chiaradia
https://bridgewinners.com/article/view/what-percentage-of-the-field-is-a-benito/?cj=1125798#c1125798
In the second link, the discussion about cheating of Garozzo starts after few posts but gets heated up as Wilsmore emphatically mentions that Garozzo cheated
What is your opinion?
Regards
Hi Dear Mr.Wolff
Perhaps south could have drawn trumps after ruffing the lead and played A and another diamond before leading club for finesse. East bidding three spades in vulnerable position virtually marks him with seven spades . Now, most probably, west may continue a diamond or even if he shifts to a club, dummy finesses, east wins but he can safely return only a club. Dummy wins and now the loser on loser play will become quite patent . south ruffs a low spade, dummy ruffs a club and leads J of spades with south discarding when east covers and makes ten tricks irrespective of what east does
And this is with respect to yesterday’s column. It is indeed delightful to play and fulfil a contract in the Moysian fit but unfortunately may not be reached in present day bidding systems
And most importantly , since quite sometime I wanted to ask this. I had been reading that Benito Garozzo cheated all the while he was in the Blue team. It appears that Avon Wilsmore mentions this in his book and he categorically and emphatically mentions that Garozzo cheated in discussion at the blog : Bridgewinners.com
What is your opinion?
Regards
Impressive, especially managing to play a card “suavely” electronically.
Hi Jim 2
Perhaps there was provision for video where players could see each other apart from the bidding!!
Regards
Hi AVRR & Jim2,
While suavely trying to write suavely about timing in bridge, it will only occur, if the results, even electronically, prove suave,
While I do believe that East did not to have seven spades, but only six to venture his 3 spade bid, it well could be true, not to draw 2 rounds of trump before finding out if the club finesse worked, if spades were only six by East, or the club finesse worked but since the 9 of hearts was not overruffed by the ten, allowing the third reason to be the the charm and, at the least, East not West could have have been dealt the three hearts.
No doubt your alternate line of play (drawing trump and having them break evenly) is more mind settling (and immediately) but whether it is percentage, while never to be known by me, but if possible, perhaps by others (likely in addition to head hurting) causes me to be non-plussed about what to do with no doubt, not drawing trump more suave, not less, since encountering danger by our heroes allows them to be better identified.
I hope no one classifies the column line, not drawing trump, but then ruffing the 2nd spade from dummy with the nine, as taking a “practice finesse” (one which is only taken to see if one’s finesses are working) since the attempt of immediately drawing trump does have a significant possible downside.
However AVRR, your line may or may not be best, and if you want to be aggressive, ask Jim2 what he thinks, since even though he is the one campaigning against head hurting, if he wants to make that sacrifice, we should all be both thankful and quite impressed.
I would if I could, but I don’t know exactly how (even close, except involving many what ifs), so I won’t.
I think Avi’s line makes a lot of sense. However, ruff the opening lead. Now cash a high trump. Both follow. Your chance for ten tricks depends on either west having the CK or the trump splitting 2-2. Take the club hook now. When that fails, play for the trump being 2-2. Ruff the Spade return high (or win the minor suit ace), and cash the remaining high trump. Playing both gives you a 70% chance. Of course, you can simply cash two high trumps, planning on taking the club hook if they break 3-1, which seems functionally identical. Once the trumps break, the club hook gives you a shot at an overtrick.
Bob Lipton
Hi AVRR,
Yes, I do 100% agree with Avon’s masterpiece and all the effort he gave in first deciding to write it, compiling it, promoting it, and taking slings and arrows in dealing with it. Truly a magnificent effort and eventually hopefully a savior to our sensational and beloved game.
That, in spite of both Benito and Giorgio easily being solidly in the top five players who have ever lived, likely (in my opinion first and second best all time) with also Pietro Forquet another key Italian Blue Team player being in the top 25.
However the rest of them (all, and from time to time which included several decades, there were up to double digits of them) were nothing more than very slightly above average club players making IMO it totally impossible for them to have won even close to what they accomplished in winning so many World championships if having played honestly and therefore without significant illegal help. (those so-called club players also were evil, significantly increasing their value).
Team bridge at that level is not so much how good are a team’s top partnerships (since most all of their opponents, at that level of play are indeed usually excellent, at least the ones who are capable of winning, but rather how bad are their teammates.
Because of the poor results of the weaker pairs creates more adverse swings than do consistent extraordinarily good results by the better ones. I should mention here that throughout the world there are a reasonable (but not overwhelming) number of good players and partnerships, but by far the largest threat against their winning is the lack of depth when at least two and sometimes three world class partnerships are needed to merely have a chance to reach the semi-finals, much less win.
Very sad, but like Bill Cosby’s current dilemma, no easy ethical answers except to void all of the wins which included the Blue Team, results forever (not replacing nor moving up others, since, all the cheating teams opponents and along their way to a championship, no one can tell or even be likely sure to which team might have won).
B & G both also had great compelling and pleasing personalities, making it even a tougher situation, but for bridge to continue to achieve its great potential, it is imperative that they admit what they have done, which, in truth goes back to Carl Albert Perroux, their Captain (and actually being an Italian lawyer) in the early 1950’s who made it all happen by being given the task of making it occur and quickly choosing the only way that overall collection of players could have achieved it.
Possibly one or two championships in double digit tries, but no way might I think it would happen more often than that. And not to mind their Captain, including Benito, would result in not being allowed to represent Italy.
While I played thousands of World Championship and other major event hands against them I got to know (and who wouldn’t?) just how good those two were, but I also played against many of their teammates and the opposite was just as true.
However, bridge being the game it is, any undue advantage, especially to brilliant players, wards off the impossible to completely avoid
disasters, which await and occur systematically
among all players (similar to bookmaker’s advantage in gambling) with their commission or often called vigorish, overcoming the back and forth lady luck provides, according and being made so, by the immutable law of averages.
To me, bridge is far and away the greatest mind game ever (for many reasons) and it is barely possible that if overt cheating is not stopped (and the USA has had their share of miscreants, together with cleaning up the (past 90+ years) with the truth, our game may suddenly vanish due to the ease of various types of cheating down to and including serious unethicality. If so, I do not want to live to see that happen, but my age indicates I may not have to.
I did, during my administrative years (and there were many decades) did as much as I could do (or at least close) to clean up what I could, while at the same time continue to play as well as administrate, but now we are at a crossroad, due to the nature of the game, which sadly tempts evil-minded players to get on that wagon, only caring about themselves, instead of the majesty of our sensational pass-time.
In any event I hope I have answered your provocative question to your satisfaction.
Hi Dear Mr Wolff
I seek your pardon if you felt the question was provocative. No , I am just curious because Wilsmore quotes many players and cites many hands and instances insinuating cheating.I have gone through some of the deals played and defended by Garozzo and found them absolutely brilliant. It would be indeed painful if at all there was any hanky-panky
Regards
Hi AVRR,
A pardon from me is not necessary since provocative shouldn’t and I think doesn’t, state nor imply, wrongdoing.
I guess that it is indeed strange for someone, considered the best at what he does, to also be illegal and untrustworthy but then one can begin to understand it when it comes to a team game, instead of an individual competition. Note=cheating at sports or anything, but still not profiting.
However while a one person entry such as Lance Armstrong could be the poster child for
individual shenanigans and also success, Benito and Giorgio needed to produce superhuman results to win besides having their mediocre teammates also produce better than their lack of talent, would permit.
Both tasks were accomplished, but to the tune of Avon’s incredible work effort and likely thousands more the world over, who have known for years, the mystery had already been solved, but, unlike Cosby, not the solution nor justice, at least partially rectified.
Also you are definitely allowed to think what you want, since all I am answering with is my opinion.